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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:14:00 -
[1]
Currently mission farmers can crank out faction ammo at a tenth the amount of time it takes a builder to produce the T2 anologue from a researched BPO, and sell said faction ammo at stupid rates of profit.
CCP needs to look into the faction ammo issue and modify T2 so that it is no longer overshadowed by a T1 ammo that can be produced by the 5000-unit lot in 1/10th the time it takes to build the same quantity from a researched T2 BPO (much less an invented T2 BPC).
Currently T2 is laughable. Few would bother when T1 faction is more available and has none of the idiotic nerfs.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:14:00 -
[2]
Currently mission farmers can crank out faction ammo at a tenth the amount of time it takes a builder to produce the T2 anologue from a researched BPO, and sell said faction ammo at stupid rates of profit.
CCP needs to look into the faction ammo issue and modify T2 so that it is no longer overshadowed by a T1 ammo that can be produced by the 5000-unit lot in 1/10th the time it takes to build the same quantity from a researched T2 BPO (much less an invented T2 BPC).
Currently T2 is laughable. Few would bother when T1 faction is more available and has none of the idiotic nerfs.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.23 06:56:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce.
Incorrect by a huge margin.
Void is cheaper, and takes 500x the time to produce.
CN Antimatter small can be produced by the 10-15k lot in the time it takes to run 1 lvl 4 mission. Producing a single run of Void S, with a researched BPO, takes at least 4 hours.
T2 ammos need to be un-nerfed in a big way, and/or made to be considerably distinct when placed side-by-side with non-T2 analogues. OR...
OR, mind you:
Put nerfs on faction ammo!
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.25 04:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Takashi X2
First im confused... the orginal poster are you upset about the manufacturing times? or the useage? or did you try to mask one in the other
I can't be concerned at all about the manufacturing times, but faction (mission farming) ammos have it all over T2 (BPO or Invented) producers. While your T1 BPO is cranking out 5k units you're running anywhere from 1 to 10 missions (or more, many more).
So, in the amount of time to crank out 5k Wrath Cruise (for example), you can convert them to CN Wrath and slap them on the market for 1900 ISK/U, which is 100% pure profit.
The poor T2 producer has a nice BPO that costs 210 ISK/U, requires raking in half a dozen materials & T2 comps, and a full *day* in production time. And the ammo they get out of it sells for 30% of the free faction ammo, and is so nerfed that no one wants to buy it anyway.
Thus, T2 ammo is relegated to back shelf because the introduction of faction ammo completely skewed the balance. T2 needs to be given a function and niche, or faction needs to be nerfed back to be a value between standard T1 and T2, not superior to. The only faction ammo that should have the possibility to be 'superior' to T2 should be the same as modules: complex/officer stuff, or perhaps even pirate faction by just a hair. Not easily accessed and free-to-produce Empire faction.
Originally by: Takashi X2
Second no one has mentioned how freakin expensive faction ammo is comparitivly...
take cruise missilse for instance
t1 200-300 isk
t2 300-500 isk
F 1900-2200 for the "cheap" Cal navy stuff
on top of that the profit margin isnt that great for faction ammo i find when trying to sell. im much better off buying implants wiht my lp as i would get more isk per lp
Profit margin isn't that great??? WTF are you smoking?
Faction is FREE to produce!
The loot you pick up & refine, or the ores you mine very easily, produce cruise missiles for less than 10 ISK per unit. The LP earned while the 5k run is being produced is the only 'cost' involved at all, and is a pittance compared to the 2000 P/U cost you quoted above.
If you can't profit selling faction ammo you're missing a whole lot of zeros on your sell order.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.26 21:32:00 -
[5]
Just need to roll this back up to page 1 so the CSMs might actually see it.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.30 13:18:00 -
[6]
Bumping this issue back up front.
Maybe the CSM's just don't give a damn, but it'd be worthwhile to say something.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.08 20:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 08/09/2008 20:57:03
Originally by: BlondieBC
Against
Faction gear should be better than T2, it only makes since that big empires keep the best stuff to themselves. It is realistic. Who has better bombs, USA or Chile?
I think a better route would be to have T2 faction items that combine the bonuses. It would of course be hugely expensive, but would make sense.
T2 does not need to be 'better' than faction, but it needs to be equal to its T1 version, which for many T2 ammo types this simply is not true because of the pointless stacking nerfs on it.
Make the nerfs single-issue regardless of the quantity of bays loaded and it would actually be functional. Currently the idiotic limitations make using base T1 far superior, and Faction renders most T2 flat useless (esp caldari, which is being farmed to death because of the insane profit margin on faction missiles).
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:56:00 -
[8]
You know, I realized something when someone pointed it out to me.
Where the nerf on an ammo effects a weapon (increased power usage, tracking reduction, range reduction, ect), only that single weapon is affected and it is only affected once, by the ammo it has fitted. The weapon is not adversely affected by the other weapons also loaded with the same ammo type.
Where the nerf on an ammo affects the ship itself (energy regen, velocity, handling, ect), they stack, one on top of another until the ship is so crippled it makes absolutely no sense to use those ammo types except in very closed situations (typically PvE).
THIS is something CCP seriously needs to look into, for it adversely affects missile users beyond any other ammo type. Hail also has stacking penalties to the using ship (cap recharge).
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.15 12:12:00 -
[9]
Rolling this back on up to P1 so that maybe someone who gives a damn will take a look and make a comment.
T2 inferior to base T1 = bad.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:56:00 -
[10]
Okay, let's rotate this back to the front of the que to be ignored again by the CSMs. |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.10.01 21:12:00 -
[11]
Ever wonder when the next CSM meeting is? They certainly don't post a schedule, nor the minutes that follow.
Hmm, I smell something with the same longevity as Eve-TV.
Ahh well, guess it's time to recycle this thread back to the front.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.10.05 21:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: slightly sillydude
T2 autocannon ammo isn't awful, both hail and barrage, just sayin. The barrage penalties are fairly modest and the added damage of hail is significant.
Barrage affects gun tracking. As I stated before ammo that affects the gun only affects that gun and no other, so you only get one incidence of the penalty for that weapon.
Hail affects your cap regen, so each weapon penalizes the ship as a whole. The penalties stack, reducing your capacitor regeneration to effectively nil while using Hail.
If they do nothing more they should look at this unbalanced disparity that renders certain T2 ammos downright dangerous to attempt using (missiles most notably), and considerably less useful than their base T1 counterparts, much less faction.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.02 23:45:00 -
[13]
Getting a look at the latest minutes and... hey, a brief mention of the problems with precision missiles, but no definate stance concerning ammunition as a whole. One little tag line... hardly any sort of constructive examination of the massive problems with the stuff.
Apparently the CSM's just don't use the stuff (wonder why? It sucks) so they simply don't give a damn.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:25:00 -
[14]
I haven't heard anything good about T2 ammo changes with this upcoming content patch, that's for sure.
Ship-affecting changes remain (notably: speed) and still stack on a per-weapon basis. Turrent-affecting nerfs remain, but they still lack the devastating affects of ship-wide nerfs.
Thus, T2 ammo only gets worse under the current mechanic. Especially missiles, even with their changes taken into affect, under the new mechanic.
Oh well.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:33:00 -
[15]
New CSMs, time to get another review of this subject.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.27 18:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
This one is going with me to Iceland
How, sir? What changes are you going to put forward? Or are you just going to point out how T2 just 'does not work' under the current mechanic and leave it up to CCP to figure out?
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.27 20:00:00 -
[17]
threadnaught |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.27 20:00:00 -
[18]
threadnaught
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.12.13 19:51:00 -
[19]
Well, back2front for another swift push back to page 5.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.03.21 13:15:00 -
[20]
Resurrecting this dusty old topic for the next round of CSMs to accomplish nothing with... all the old arguments are still the same.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.06.02 11:46:00 -
[21]
Good lord I thought I'd never see this thread resurrected from the ashes of the previous pointless CSM runs.
Of course, I'm still all for making T2 ammo viable against faction, but it seems CCP is more interested in making it easier to create your Caldari Navy Ammo... 23 nice shiny new agents.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.07.13 08:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 02/06/2009 19:03:17
The original sounds like an ignorant and angry industrialist who expected a T2 ammo BPO to be free money and is upset it isn't. T2 ammo is a definite concern, but trying half of the thrust of the original poster seems to be to nerf faction ammo, which I don't support at all.
Originally by: Mister Xerox
So, in the amount of time to crank out 5k Wrath Cruise (for example), you can convert them to CN Wrath and slap them on the market for 1900 ISK/U, which is 100% pure profit.
No it's not. You fail at understanding the economics of EVE.
And you fail to see the point.
It is about balance, not economic issues. I know how the economy functions very well, it is what I do.
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Thus, T2 ammo is relegated to back shelf because the introduction of faction ammo completely skewed the balance.
T2 ammo is relegated to the back shelf because it sucks ass, with it's horrendously large *stacking* penalties.
As I have pointed out many times already.
Originally by: Ulstan
T1 ammo is fine. Cheap and basic.
Faction ammo is fine: super expensive and pretty good.
T2 ammo sucks - it needs to be in between the T1 and the faction ammo in terms of cost and power.
Right now the price is in the right place, but the power isn't there, many of the types are utterly pointless given the huge penalties.
For the complexities involved in manufacturing the stuff T2 should far surpass faction which can be made simply by running one (yes TWO) level 4 mission and supplying a handful of T1 ammo.
And this can be done in the amount of time it takes to blitz one level 4 mission. The production of the ammo is INSTANTANEOUS.
Economically I'm withdrawing from the argument there; T2 ammo is economically viable and indeed more profitable than faction depending on how you value your LP. I am only concerned with the stacking nerfs that make most T2 ammo utterly unusable.
Yeah, resurrecting a thread that the CSMs still refuse to take a look at.
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